THIS WAS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

 

LARRY KING, HOST: Southern Baptists say their intention is to share God's Gospel with members of the Jewish faith. Jews say the aim is conversation and an insult to their creed.

 

Joining us for an in-depth debate about this controversy,

Rabbi Marvin Hier, founder and dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center;

Rabbi Schmuley Boteach, executive director of the Oxford L'Chaim Society; in Louisville, Kentucky,

R. Alert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; and

David Brickner, executive director of Jews for Jesus.

 

They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

 

Good evening. Welcome to another edition of LARRY KING LIVE. A raging debate in the religious community and beyond as the Southern Baptists, who are going to gather in Chicago, are asking their members to proselytize the faith and to convert Jews. Indeed, they're giving out pamphlets. This one, aimed at the Jewish faith, is called "Days of Awe: Prayers for Jews." There are also pamphlets on prayers for Hindus and prayers for Muslims.

 

Let's start with Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He's in Louisville.

 

What is the aim here, Albert?

 

REV. R. ALBERT MOHLER JR., PRESIDENT, SOUTHERN BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY: In this endeavor, Southern Baptists are about, Larry, what we've always been about from the beginning, and that is sharing the Gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ to all persons, Jew and gentile, rich and poor, young and old.

 

This is in faithfulness to the great commission of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and it is the heart of the Christian mission.

 

KING: So the goal is then you want Jews to convert. What do you want Jews to do? Listen to you and do what?

 

MOHLER: Our prayer is that all persons would hear the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and respond in faith. We believe that the Gospel is for all persons, regardless of any kind of ethnic identity. We believe in sharing the Gospel without any discrimination, and that all persons are in need of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. And it is our responsibility to share that Gospel.

 

KING: Rabbi Hier, you may disagree, but it's free speech. He can proselytize. You can listen or not listen. What's the big deal?

 

RABBI MARVIN HIER, SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER: Absolutely. I've had plenty of Jehovah witnesses come to my doorstep. This is a free country.

 

The issue here, however, is their methodology. They're using deception.

 

If you look at that pamphlet, "Days of Awe," they're talking about Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur. In many instances, they've had programs with Jewish religious music, wearing yarmulkes. Some people have been invited as speakers that have put on a prayer shawl, a tallit.

 

If you have something to sell, be straight about it. Just say: "We're trying to sell Christianity. We're Christians. Here are our Christian symbols." Don't adopt somebody else's -- somebody else's, you know, symbols.

 

KING: You're saying...

 

HIER: This is not -- we're not selling a car.

 

KING: ... they're designing it for subterfuge.

 

HIER: That's correct.

 

KING: All right. What is the position in this, David, of Jews for Jesus. Well, first, explain that organization, because you're not Christian, are you? Or are you?

 

DAVID BRICKNER, JEWS FOR JESUS: Well, we are Jewish people who have come to believe that Jesus is the messiah and the savior of the world, that he died and rose again to pay the penalty for our sins.

 

KING: You don't celebrate Christian holidays?

 

BRICKNER: Well, we are 100 percent Jewish and 100 percent Christian. We are like the first Jews for Jesus.

 

KING: You get every holiday off.

 

BRICKNER: That's right. We have two for the price of one. Peter, James and John were the first Jews for Jesus. And Jesus himself is Jewish.

 

KING: So you believe that the messiah has come and it is Jesus.

 

BRICKNER: That's correct.

 

KING: What do you think of what the Southern Baptists are doing?

 

BRICKNER: Well, I'm not a Southern Baptist, as you said.

 

KING: I know. But what do you think of what they're doing?

 

BRICKNER: But I -- I'm proud of them. I applaud their efforts, because they care enough to love my Jewish people. And the most loving thing that you can do is share the love of God in the messiah, Jesus.

 

KING: So any way they do it is fine as long as they bring that message?

 

BRICKNER: Well, it's important for people to be able to appeal to individuals, and a certain way that communicates effectively. And this is not about subterfuge and this is not about appropriating symbols.

 

After all, Jesus himself used Jewish symbols.

 

KING: He was Jewish.

 

BRICKNER: He was Jewish. And so the message of faith in him is a very Jewish message.

 

KING: Rabbi Boteach, do you agree with Rabbi Hier that they're using subterfuge, this is wrong?

 

RABBI SCHMULEY BOTEACH, OXFORD L'CHAIM SOCIETY: Well, I would say, Larry, it goes well beyond using subterfuge. I mean, who would have thought that in a new millennium we are -- we would once again see the prevalence of spiritual dictatorship and totalitarianism?

 

I mean, basically the Nazis said there's a problem with the Jewish body, so let's find a solution. And these groups are saying there's a problem with the Jewish soul. We have another solution. It's called conversion. You have to be like us or we can't love you. If you're not like us, you're going to go to the eternal barbecue.

 

These -- this is a nefarious, insipid message, which has led to inquisitions, auto-da-fe, pogroms, expulsions, and ultimately the Holocaust.

 

KING: Are you against, therefore, any attempt of any religion at conversion? If a religion attempts conversion, is it saying, I'm better than you?

 

BOTEACH: I am absolutely against any religion that says that one faith is superior to another. I don't see how you that is anything different than spiritual racism. It's a way of saying that we are closer to God than you, and that's what leads to hatred.

 

And far from it being -- this is not just something which is innocent. You know, 2,000 years of Christian anti-Judaism led directly to racial antisemitism. It culminated in the Holocaust. And real honest Christian scholars are now looking back at Christian theology and saying that versus like Matthew that say that the Jews took upon themselves the blood, or John, which says that children -- that Jews are the children of the devil, prepared to the bidding of their father at any time, have to re-examine, reinterpret it and reapply, because too many Jews have suffered.

 

I mean, I find Reverend Mohler's comments...

 

KING: Hold it. Let's stop. We've got a lot of time.

 

Albert Mohler, how do you respond to what the rabbis, both rabbis have said?

 

MOHLER: Well, I'm very disappointed. First, using words like deception and subterfuge, and now, speaking of antisemitism, this is not about antisemitism and it's certainly not about deception. I don't believe in any form of evangelism that would involve deception.

 

And one thing Southern Baptists are seldom charged with is subtlety. We are right up front about what we are doing, otherwise there would not be this response. So...

 

BOTEACH: Reverend Mohler, Reverend Mohler, you know...

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

KING: Hold on. Hold on. Let him -- rabbis, let him finish, and then we'll respond.

 

MOHLER: But the issue of the charge of antisemitism is especially disappointing, since American evangelicals are the best friends in many ways that the Jewish people can have. We defend their right of religious liberty. But it is in the very heart of the Gospel that we are to share the Gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ to all persons.

 

And you know, when it comes to the issue of the claims that the belief that the Christian Gospel is the only Gospel and that Jesus is the only savior, that that's totalitarian, I find that very strange, coming from the people whose own book in the Old Testament speaks about the one true God over against the false gods.

 

KING: Rabbi Hier, what are you afraid of? Hold on, rabbi. Everybody in turn.

 

HIER: First, let me say this: that regarding their love, it's wonderful that Southern Baptists are expressing this kind of love.

 

KING: Pro-Israel.

 

HIER: Pro-Israel. I have no problem with that. Israel needs all the support it can get. We should recognize, however, that in 2000 years that love was lacking. And when we really needed it and the chips were down, there was no one there. During the Holocaust, we didn't hear those words of love. So it's kind of...

 

KING: But that isn't Albert Mohler's fault.

 

HIER: It's kind of hypocritical now, when Jews have come out of the Holocaust, when there are 13 1/2 million Jews in the world -- there are 5 billion people on this planet -- that there's nobody else to convert but 13 1/2 million people who just lost one-third of the Jewish people in the Holocaust.

 

KING: But if they believe fully in this is the way to salvation and to heaven, why not spread that?

 

HIER: As I said before, Larry, if they feel very strongly about it, meet me in the street, or anybody else, or meet Larry King in the street, and say, Larry, I'd like to convert you but I'm a Christian. Don't come and use subterfuge -- Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and a shofar. Since when are those -- those are not Christian symbols .

 

KING: We'll pick right up in a minute. We'll be including your phone calls. It's our subject for the full hour. Don't go away.

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

KING: David Brickner, how did Jews for Jesus get converts?

 

BRICKNER: Well, we go out on the streets, and we hand out Gospel tracks. We wear T-shirts that say "Jews for Jesus." We have a Web site, http://www.jewsforjesus.org. We have thousands of people visiting our...

 

KING: You're in Israel.

 

BRICKNER: We're in 10 countries around the world, including Israel.

 

KING: And your thought is, to make Jews Christians or to make Jews what?

 

BRICKNER: What we're looking to do is to engage, to explain and to share with our Jewish people the love of God, that God sent Jesus the messiah to suffer, to die for our sins. He rose again from the dead, and that by putting our faith and trust in him, we can have forgiveness for all our sins, past, present, future. Now that's a message of love, it's a message of hope, and it's one that we want to share not just with Jewish people, but with all people.

 

KING: Rabbi Boteach, what argument could you have with that?

 

BOTEACH: Well, Larry, you know, the United States has come clean about history of racism. There was a civil rights movement which sought to establish equality. I think Christian leaders Mr. Brickner have to come clean and say, what kind of love is it when I can only love you on my terms? If you don't become like me, I believe you're going to the eternal barbecue.

 

I mean, the fact is, the talk of salvation means the Jews are not being saved, even with their own faith. It means that German Nazis who gassed Jews did it amidst a belief in Christ, are today in heaven, but the Jewish victims, like the million children who were into lamp shades and into soap because they died with wrong faith are today in hell. I find that perverse.

 

KING: Albert Mohler, are you saying that -- by the way, Albert Mohler, are you saying -- let me get this clear because I know that Billy Graham has been quoted and...

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

BOTEACH: where do Jews go that don't believe in Christ?

 

KING: All right, that's the question. I'll ask it, rabbi.

 

Albert Mohler, if you do not believe in Christ and you die, Jewish or anyone, what happens to you?

 

MOHLER: I believe it says that those who are -- who reject Christ, those who do not accept Christ, those who do not believe in Christ, will die, and when they are raised in the resurrection, they will face the judgment of God, and they will be consigned to hell. That is not something I came up with, that is not something that Southern Baptists came up with; that is in the New Testament. It is central to New Testament Christianity, and thus, it is important to us to do everything we can...

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

KING: So what you're saying is, you are condemned if you don't accept. All right now...

 

MOHLER: Yes...

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

BOTEACH: Larry, doesn't that sound a bit to you like, if you don't have blond hair and blue eyes, you're going to be go up in a furnace? Doesn't that sound exactly the same?

 

KING: Unless, rabbi, I can give you blond hair and blue eyes, and he's saying he can give you the salvation. Rabbi, he's not saying...

 

BOTEACH: What would -- how would we Americans react if the KKK introduced a prayer for all blacks to become white. How would we react if masculine men male movements introduced some sort of prayer that all women should have sex-change operations and embrace the real superior gender.

 

KING: That's a little different than changing the philosophy.

 

MOHLER: The rabbi knows he's being ludicrous here. And frankly, these examples are not helpful at all. This is about sharing the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are sharing that as a gift. We are not imposing that on the Jewish people.

 

KING: All right, Rabbi Hier, that's important -- if he just believes that if you die and you don't accept this, your going go to hell, and he would like to send you to heaven. He's trying help you. What's wrong with that?

 

HIER: There is nothing wrong with that, as I said before, if he feels that strongly. What's wrong is their methodology. Their very deceptive about it. Their using our symbols. And more than that, you know, how would the Southern Baptists like it, if next Christmas Eve, they woke up to a full-page ad in "The New York Times" from a group of atheists that invite everyone to a midnight mass, and when they come to the mass, there are crosses, and sacred vestments and all these atheist preachers get up and convince the congregation to become atheist. The Southern Baptists would lead the protests against that, and that's what they're doing to the Jews.

 

MOHLER: Larry, that is not true. I don't understand this charge of deception. We are not doing anything like Rabbi Hier is here suggesting. We're very up-front about what we're doing. And the prayer book you held up was intended for Baptists Christians to use in praying for their Jewish friends. It wasn't even intended to present to the Jewish people directly at all.

 

KING: I'm looking at it now, rabbi. It tells what each day of Rosh Hashanah, each day of the new year is, what the group is seeking from it, and what they get from it. It's sort of explaining Judaism to the non-Jew.

 

HIER: No, Larry, that's not true. It says on the last page, for example, they asked for prayers for the Jews, who are, unfortunately, caught up with materialism. It's very...

 

BOTEACH: It calls them lost sheep and -- I mean, this really is an outrageous document that is -- that purports to a prayer book. I mean, listen to some of this: "Pray that the Jewish people are free of the strong influence of materialism in the land where they live." I mean, what kind of Jewish stereotypes are we catering to? They also say that Jews should see "lives of righteous integrity which will provoke them to consider the claims of serving the messiah -- of those serving the messiah." I mean, are they inferring that Jews don't have integrity? Are they inferring -- they also say...

 

KING: Is that a stereotype, David? Would you support that statement, that...

 

BRICKNER: I don't believe it's a stereotype. I believe it's true of all people, Jews and gentiles alike, and materialism can be a problem.

 

BOTEACH: Materialism. Jews lack integrity.

 

KING: Did they say materialism regarding Muslims?

 

BRICKNER: I'm not sure. But I think that the real issue is...

 

BOTEACH: And, Larry, what about...

 

KING: Don't interrupt, rabbi. Rabbi, do not interrupt.

 

BRICKNER: I think the real issue whether or not Jesus is the messiah. Because he claimed to be messiah, and Jesus himself used Jewish symbols. So the Rabbi's argument is not with the Southern Baptist, it's not with Jews For Jesus; it's with Jesus and his disciples. If Jesus is not the...

 

KING: Well, if he said he was the messiah, would you disagree with him?

 

HIER: But once Jesus left the Jewish people, and his disciples created a new religion, they are two separate religions.

 

KING: He didn't create a religion.

 

HIER: No, his disciples did. They created Christianity. And therefore, you can be either Jewish or Christian. You can't be both.

 

KING: You don't believe you can be both.

 

HIER: You cannot be -- if you ask a person politically, what are you? And he says I am a Democrat and I am a Republican, or somebody else says, I'm an atheist and I'm a Christian. Impossible. You're one or the other.

 

KING: Albert Mohler, are you hurt by Billy Graham's remark that -- here is what Billy said: "I normally defend my denomination. I'm loyal to it" -- he is a Southern Baptist -- "but I have never targeted Muslims and I have never targeted Jews." What do you make of what Billy said?

 

MOHLER: I know and love Dr. Billy Graham and respect him highly, and the one thing I know about Dr. Billy graham is that he believes in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the need for all persons to come to faith in repentance in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and I know he believes that that is true for the Jews no less than for others and no more, and I hold to the same position, and so do the Southern Baptists. We don't believe that Jews are any more in need of the Gospel than anyone else, but they are no less in need the of Gospel. One of the things.

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

KING: All right, let me pick up with rabbi -- hold on, we'll pick up with Rabbi Boteach when we come back. Here is what Billy Graham said this past weekend -- watch.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

REV. BILLY GRAHAM: I'm a Southern Baptist, and I normally defend my denomination. I'm loyal to it. I believe in them. They have some of the finest people in the world in that denomination. But I have never targeted Muslims, I have never targeted Jews. I believe that we should declare the fact that God loves you, God is willing to forgive you, God can change you.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

KING: Rabbi Boteach, I've interviewed Billy Graham many times. And when I asked him about this, about death, and salvation, and heaven and hell, he said that he's not going to judge it, because maybe everybody at deaths does find Christ. So he's never going to try to convert Jews. Would you agree that that's a fair opinion to have, that maybe when a Jew dies, at the moment of death, he or she finds Christ?

 

BOTEACH: I mean, people can believe what they want.

 

KING: Is that is a fair statement?

 

BOTEACH: About Jews?

 

KING: It's not a prejudiced statement. Yes, about Jews or anyone.

 

BOTEACH: Well, I mean, it's certainly not true of the Jews that I know. They die -- they were born as Jews, they die as Jews, and they retain their faith throughout their lifetime.

 

I mean, we Jews have shown a phenomenal tenacity throughout history to sustain our belief systems amidst the compulsion and often coercion to do otherwise.

 

I mean, I basically believe as a Jew that Billy Graham is a great man, Reverend Mohler is probably very close to God. I do not believe I have a copyright on truth as a Jew. I believe in -- my Judaism is true for Jews, in the same way feminism may be true for woman. But I do believe that I am not being accorded that same spiritual right to exercise my proximity to God by the people I am hearing tonight.

 

I mean, Jews for Jesus is like saying Americans for Communism, or Hindus for Allah. I mean, give me a break, these are two contradictory systems.

 

KING: Well, you are entitled to be an American for Communism, if you wish.

 

BOTEACH: OK, well, an American for Stalin, whatever it might be.

 

KING: I got you.

 

BOTEACH: My simple point, Larry, is -- Larry, my simple point is that I cannot -- I have go beyond Rabbi Hier -- I cannot accept that there is a morality, in a spiritual system, which denigrates me as a Jew and says that I am going to burn in hell even though I have lived a good life, ethical life, even though I have told the truth and been honest with my children.

 

I am amazed at what I'm hearing tonight. This is the 21st century, for goodness sakes.

 

KING: David...

 

BOTEACH: This barbaric element which has entered into religion has got to be put aside...

 

KING: David, what happens in hell?

 

BOTEACH: ... no more spiritual apartheid.

 

<